Jonathan Welton as well as the heresy of preterism.

Incorrect training as well as the duty of Harold Eberle, Martin Trench, as well as Costs Johnson.

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  1. Good man Jeff. For starters, I'm constantly discovering questionable associations with preachers who get notable publicity, funding, etc. As for people who follow any "leaders", they tend to take up their time and keep them from learning other things. Certainly part of the truther agenda. As an independent learner, I've come across numerous things where one has to ask the question, why aren't they teaching these things. More important than what people teach, is what they don't teach. They dismiss knowledge of the occult, their agenda, and workings as a mis focus, ignoring the principle of being wise as serpents and knowing all the tricks of the Devil. That notion has carried down to preachers at all levels. The agenda becomes obvious.

  2. I as a Praeterist need AD70 not at all. Just trust Jesus Christ when he promised all would be fulfilled in "This generation". You don't need proof, but you do need complete trust which is faith. You can only be justified by God for faith in Christ, no faith no salvation.

  3. Peter said the end of all things is at hand he is talking about the end of the law which is the coming of Christ. Please read dan ch 7 and ch 12 his return was in the 4 th kingdom all was fulfill, all things was fulfilled 70 ad no more law no more sin

  4. I am glad you are reading some good stuff from Jonathan Welton and Bill Johnson. Dear Lord open his eyes and ears to understand the words he is reading. Hey all read these books and decide for yourself. Pray for wisdom and understanding prior to reading.

  5. What if you're both right? What if the Cross is the central message? And what if we were commanded to take up our cross and carry it what I can only assume is forward. Forward into the Kingdom we are seeking first as instructed. To establish the fame of the cross by pouring out our lives even unto death in service to a lost and dying world there by establishing the kingdom. Seek first the Kingdom, not argue over the interpretation of Revelations, is the command. Love one another, not call each other names and accuse other factions of persecuting you even though neither side really knows what persecution actually is by experience at least.
    I believe these types of discussions are exactly what Paul told Timothy to avoid at the end of 1st Tim and the begging of 2nd.

    To my knowledge Jonathan Welton does not teach that the first resurrection already happened. I read Raptureless and didn't see that anywhere. Can you source that please? I don't agree with everything Dr Welton teaches, but much of it seems well thought out and supported by scripture. In any event heresy seems extreme…You keep saying he says that the marriage supper of the lamb took place in 70 AD. Source that please.

  6. The bible says the spirit of Elijah will come in the last days Or the end times Matthew 11:14 said 2000 years ago Quote For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. "? Elijah came 2000 years ago as John .

  7. To the Dude who thinks Jesus is still to come your clearly not educated in biblical text or historical facts because if anyone read the bible and put them self in the first century where it was preached to them 2000 years ago would understand all the prophecys of Christ second coming and all the warnings was for the first century people .This is just a fact so stop changing scripture to fit your belief and start changing your belief to fit scripture .

  8. I appreciate both Bethel and Jonathan Weltons teachings. I do not go to Bethel or attend the Weltons school. I am scripturally rooted and would declare that I have found peace in the truth that I am a son, citizen and ambassador of the kingdom of God. I know certain things like the new covenant and the destruction of the temple are a lot to soak up but I am not sure why you would try to attempt to sort of discredit the message of Gods Kingdom as the Bible's central theme. We were given dominion in Genesis, last time I checked God didn't give dominion to slaves. Isaiah 9:6 declares Jesus Christ would come with a Government on His Shoulders upon His arrival. He brought His kingdom, John the Baptists message was the Kingdom, it's the primary message of Jesus and even in Acts 28:30-31 you see Paul in the last years of his life welcoming all that came to visit, boldly and freely he proclaimed the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ. In the tone you take with Bethel and Welton it would seem like you would want to take up arms because Paul proclaimed the kingdom first before teaching about Jesus. Isn't it interesting to note that he teaches about the Lord Jesus Christ and preached the kingdom, just a thought.
    I am not clear what your point is about the first to resurrect but how do you deal with Matthew 27:51-53 that basically describes the many bodies of saints that resurrected after His resurrection and appeared to many in the holy city?
    I honestly feel like you don't really have an issue with Jonathan or Bethel but your issue lies within understanding the word of God.
    In Love,
    Jesse

  9. It's an 'ad hominem' debate tactic of weak arguments — and those that present them — to attack the person, not the arguement. Debate if you must, present your conclusions, but don't go all Crusades on us in this day and age by lableing with such arguable terms as "heretic" and "heresy." It's a conversation stopper, and that is not a tactic of strength.

    We all read the same words (in English, mind you) in the Bible and try to make sense of it. Probably the ONLY human beings to ever fully understand the exact meaning of the words in the books of the Bible are the original audience for whom the writings were written. (I contend the Bible in English is not "inerrant" as it impossible for it to be, having been trasnlated by humans form alanguage they do not fully know and sources that do not currently exist. It's critical for this audience to know we have exactly ZERO original manuscripts [writings], and some of the COPIES we have have major differnces (such as most of Mark 16 which does nto exist in earlier copies of that gospel thus indicating it was added by non-inspired translators).

    Present an argument if you differ, but don't lower yourself by assulting the man with "heretic" and "heresy" labels. I have never heard, nor will I ever hear the Gospel according Jeff Nicholes, so try a little more humility and meekness, brother. You are in speaking in public, here, and may actually be doing the exact thing of which you accuse Welton: leading people away from Truth. TRUTH MATTERS, and "This guy is wrong" is not a good argument — yet people believe you.

    It takes an open mind, intelligence and humility to truly get the Truth — especially if you have decided you already know it. Preterism presents no harm, and incorporates all of the Gospel, the words of Yeshua himself, all the prohets and John of Revelation fame, and does not contradict what they wrote/spoke. What it contradicts is what some pastors, scholars and authors SAY is says. But these are merely theological differences based on the same words.

    Please tread respectfully.

  10. I would like to hear your opinion on when Jesus said "From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation."
    Do you believe Jesus was mistaken or do you understand generation to mean something different than I? And I am not being condescending, just so you know, I am just curious.

  11. Jonatan welton is not a full preterist. Full preterits don't believe in a physical resurrection and return of Christ at all. Hence the term full, they believe all of scripture is fulfilled.

  12. Eberly does a superb job of explaining his view vs. the futurist view.   I do not agree with Eberly, but you could learn from his method of teaching.    Instead you blanket all of Bethel's teachers into one group… however, Bill Johnson's teaching does not agree with Kris Vallotton's teaching, nor does Welton agree with Eberly.    Eberly teaches a resurrection and a rapture.  You also suggest that Bethel does not teach the cross or Jesus Christ and Him crucified.  That is a falsehood.  Your accusation in this manner suggest that people should just feed on milk rather than meat.   How true there is a lot of bones in the meat being served at Bethel, and many immature students end up swallowing the bones.  I understand your frustration. 

    It is true that Eberly's teaching of his insistent "victorious" view creates an emotional attachment just like his previous eschatological futuristic view that he once held of a pre-trib rapture.  The false ideal of a "rapture" in a pretrib rapture context also creates the same exact emotional attachment.  However, partial-preterits and victorious eschatology ARE NOT one in the same as Eberly teaches.  Eberly teaches a more preterits view than a partial preterits one. 

    It appears you are just here to rant on your accusations with these individual's.  I was hoping that you would be presenting your "better way" instead… Your insistence however on your opinion that does not present a better way  gets you the appropriate  thumb's down in which you rightfully deserve.   At the time of this comment, the thumbs down more than doubles your thumbs up.

  13. You have NO authority to hold anyone, that is NOT your servant, accountable for anything! You may disagree, that's fine, but they will NEVER ever stand before you to be judged!

  14. Jesus quotes this passage in Malachi 3 pointing to John the Baptist and said John is Elijah.
    Luke quotes this in Malachi 4 and says John comes in the spirit of Elijah. the prophesy is not Elijah (john,) will come and 1,950 years later we are still waiting on the dreadful day of the Lord. The summer of 66 ad was dreadful indeed to those facing the Roman invasion and notice the Lord came "suddenly to his temple" and it was destroyed by 70 a.d.

    3 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple,

    Malachi 4  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

    6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    John the Baptist is a red flag for the judgement of God that was coming For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

    2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

  15. A side note, your description of preterism is so completely over the top! You remind me of the progressives in the political world that call those who embrace "nationalism" as racists! They then take the most extreme example they can find and try to make that the standard for all! Stop with your false narratives. I highly doubt that Welton believes that Jesus won't return until the decay in the soil is brought under Christ's feet. Jeff have you considered approaching Welton in love and asking him what he actually believes? If you start with heretic, i doubt he will take your call but approach him in humility and love and you may be surprised.

  16. Jeff, no offense but you look stoned or incredibly tired. Regardless, The men you mention elevate the Cross vastly more than those in camps who diminish the Cross and its power to believers. Jeff do you even know how many brilliant theologians are what you describe as "preterist's"? I struggle with guys such as yourself who start the conversation with accusations such as "heretic". Why not just say, brother's in Christ that i disagree with? I guess you and those in the Reformed camp believe you have a monopoly on the truth. Why would any of us need to study and yield to the Holy Spirit when we could just sit at your feet and have you download your infinite wisdom? The biggest problem i have with those self anointed Deputy Sheriff's is, I rarely see the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. Want to have a debate? They show up in droves! Want love, peace, joy, gentleness and kindness? Extremely Lacking! Get some sleep Jeff and maybe start with your own heart. Very few people care that you can regurgitate theology books written by other men. People want to know the power of the cross that produces freedom to actually live out the Gospel.

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