Is Hell Reasonable?
For more information, read Cold-Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels (http://amzn.to/2AW8bc5)
Read: Can The Existence And Nature Of Hell Be Defended?
Can The Existence and Nature of Hell Be Defended? (Downloadable Bible Insert)
Critics claim ancient myths are much like the story of Jesus, citing examples of dying and rising gods in a effort to draw the parallel. Was the story of Jesus copied from these ancient myths? Is Jesus a copycat Savior? More importantly, does Jesus even matter at all? In this Q and A Session from an apologetics conference, J. Warner joins Brett Kunkle from Maven Truth to answer this question.
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What a great answer.
I would enjoy seeing you apply your skill set to the origins of the concept of hell. To my knowledge there is only one occurrence in the Bible where Jesus mentions suffering after death and that is in a parable. His other references to the lost include words like perish and death. He does speak of the fires being eternal but not to eternal suffering in certain passages. Examples: The wages of sun is death. “…not willing that any should perish…”. If we are to accept the concept that there is eternal suffering for the unsaved, then these verses and many more must be accounted for. Philosophically, if you have no trouble worshiping God while believing that He could punish someone eternally for mistakes made during three score and ten years then that is your choice. However, your detective skills would be put to good use in determining whether or not Jesus actually preached that the lost would suffer eternally for rejecting him. There is certainly evidence to the contrary.
No. Absolutely not.
The Case For "Hell" In The Bible:
In The Hebrew Old Testament:
Hell = the word "Sheol", and simply means: the "grave", or the "pit"… A place of burial when one dies… ( Everyone goes to "hell"/ the "grave" – in the first "death"! )
Eccl 9 : 5 "For the living know that they shall die: BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Eccl. 9 : 6 "Also their LOVE, and their HATRED, and their ENVY, is NOW PERISHED; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."
Eccl 9 : 10 "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; For There Is NO WORK , NOR DEVICE, NOR KNOWLEDGE, NO WISDOM, IN THE GRAVE/HELL, WHERE YOU ARE GOING."
Hosea 13 : 14 "I will ransom them from the power of THE GRAVE/HELL; I will redeem them from death: O DEATH, I will be thy plagues; O GRAVE/HELL, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes."
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In The Greek New Testament:
The Word "Hell" Is Described By 3 Different Greek Words/& Meanings:
#1.) Hell = "Hades"; meaning: "the grave"/ a place of burial in death.
#2.) Hell = "Gehenna", meaning: a firey trash heap/ a state of destruction by fire.
#3.) Hell = "Tartaroo", meaning: a dark abyss/ a place without form, and void.
#1.) Unlike, the "Hades" that the pagan Greek philosophers taught/teach, in which later, got assimilated into the Church ( primarily thru the gnostic, Platonist beliefs of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas). The "biblical" meaning of the Greek word "Hades", like the original Hebrew word "Sheol"; just means: "the grave"/ a place of burial in the 1st death.
#1) Everybody goes to Hell/The Grave/(Hades) when we die the 1st death, until the 1st or 2nd resurrection of the dead… ( See: John 5 : 28 – 29 )
(1st resurrection of life = 1 Thes. 4 : 16 – 18 …1 Cor. 15 : 51 – 55 …Rev. 20 : 4 – 6 )
(2nd resurrection of damnation = Rev. 20 : 5a & Rev. 20 : 13 – 15 )
Just like the Bible says: "For dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
(See: Genesis 3 : 19 … Job 34 : 15 … Daniel 12 : 1 – 2 )
1 Cor. 15 : 54 "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH is swallowed up in victory."
1 Cor. 15 : 55 "O DEATH where is thy sting? O GRAVE/HELL, where is thy victory?"
Matt 16 : 18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of HELL/THE GRAVE shall not prevail against it."
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#2 ) "Gehenna"… Refers to the literal "FIRE" that will rain down from God out of heaven upon the resurrected wicked, for their final Judgment & total destruction at the "2nd DEATH".
Matt 10 : 28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in HELL (Fire )."
Luke 12 : 5 "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into HELL (Fire); yea, I say unto you, FEAR HIM."
Jude 1 : 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE."
Genesis 19 : 24 "Then the LORD RAINED upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah BRIMSTONE and FIRE from the LORD out of heaven;"
Rev 20 : 7 "And WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE EXPIRED, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"
Rev 20 : 8 "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."
Rev 20 : 9 "And they WENT UP ON THE BREADTH OF THE EARTH, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and FIRE CAME DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, AND DEVOURED THEM."
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#3.) Tartaroo/Tartarus (Hell) Refers to the dark "Abyss" reserved for Satan and his angels… Is/Was also the state of Chaos that the earth was in before creation… And will likewise be in again as a result of Christ's 2nd Coming/or Presence, at the end of the 6th seal of Revelation 6 : 12 – 17.
2 Peter 2 : 4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to HELL/THE ABYSS, and delivered them into CHAINS of DARKNESS, TO BE RESERVED UNTO JUDGMENT;"
Jude 1 : 6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath RESERVED in Everlasting CHAINS UNDER DARKNESS unto THE JUDGMENT of THE GREAT DAY."
Genesis 1 : 1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
Genesis 1 : 2 "And the EARTH WAS WITHOUT FORM, AND VOID; and DARKNESS was upon the face of the DEEP. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
Jeremiah 4 : 23 "I BEHELD THE EARTH, and, lo, it was WITHOUT FORM, AND VOID; and the heavens, and they had no light."
Jeremiah 4 : 24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."
Jeremiah 4 : 25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."
Jeremiah 4 : 26 "I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and ALL THE CITIES thereof were Broken Down AT THE PRESENCE of the LORD, and by HIS FIERCE ANGER."
Jeremiah 4 : 27 "For thus hath the LORD said, The WHOLE LAND/* EARTH/ SHALL BE DESOLATE; yet will I not make a full end."
Jeremiah 4 : 28 "For THIS SHALL THE EARTH MOURN, and THE HEAVENS ABOVE BE BLACK: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it."
Jeremiah 4 : 29 "The whole city/ *or ALL THE CITIES/ shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and NOT A MAN DWELL THEREIN" ( See also: Isaiah 24 )
Rev. 20 : 1 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the BOTTOMLESS PIT/*ABYSS/*WITHOUT FORM & VOID/ and a GREAT CHAIN in his hand."
Rev 20 : 2 "And he laid hold on the Dragon, that Old Serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and BOUND HIM A THOUSAND YEARS,"
Rev 20 : 3 "And cast him into the BOTTOMLESS PIT, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should DECEIVE the nations NO MORE, TILL the THOUSAND YEARS SHOULD BE FULFILLED: and AFTER THAT he must be LOOSED a LITTLE SEASON."
Hi J
Just curious, if God's justice has varying degrees, wouldn't that imply that his mercy and salvation would also have varying degrees? This does not make sense to me.
Very well said
A plain-faced reading of the Gospels barely gets you to the idea of Hell. Jesus' uses the word Gehenna, and translating that to hell is just people pushing their beliefs into the text.
Saying the wicked get thrown into a lake of fire would mean they die, not that is goes on for eternity. A literal meaning would be: the righteous get eternal life, the wicked get permanent death.
Is there a link to the full session?
Wow 🤯 thank you for this: I’ve read the entire Bible & you shed new light.
My pastor says that in Hell, you'll be burning, on fire, for all eternity.
You reminded me that there are different level. Thank you.
Great answer, both of you 👍
I would like to read the article you wrote regarding different levels of torment in hell. I do not know where that is mentioned in the Bible. You did not give any Scripture references to back up what you were claiming and there is no link to the article you wrote.
Wages for sin is death not life in hell
J. Warner, the point you made about the different levels of hell and torment needs to be emphasized and articulated a lot more among Christian intellects.
Level 6 of torment for eternity is nothing different than level 7, that's why ECT does not make any sense, read Psalm 37.
Guehena no es un lugar de cuarentena es un lugar de destrucción, That make sense!!!!
I don’t believe that unending torment in hell serves either Gods Love or Justice. The implication is that Gods wrath is never satisfied.
Yet the atonement of Christ subsist in His death and resurrection. Christ is not suffering ECT as our atonement.
It’s reasonable to conclude that the lost receive the death penalty at the final judgement. This is because we see through out scripture that immortality is only gifted to the saved.
Hell is not a place where the lost spend eternity consciously tormented. Hell is the place where the lost are killed/annihilated (second death).
When all sin and death are eradicated, Gods wrath IS satisfied; His Justice IS satisfied.
And because He was able to save those received His Grace. His Love is satisfied.
God is Love
Adam died spiritually the day he sinned.
Jesus The Last Adam from Heaven
Said
You Must Be Born Again From Above!
Spiritual birth ~ fit for Heaven.
If an unsaved person dies that is it dead, in the grave.
The judgement is eternal ~ dead.
Not eternal punishment
Who is keeping this hell going?
Maintaining it?
Yet it’s totally kept from the saved they are having Joy while many are in eternal torment?
No it doesn’t sound reasonable.
I add that condamn someone which lives 80 years to an infinite time of awful suffering would be the most sadistic thing anyone can do. No one deserve such treatment. I can admit purgatory, that's fair, but hell ? Fuck off.
Hell fire ?? Wow what a sad concept of GOD , have you heard the story about the Taliban who put a soldier in a wire cage poured petrol all over him and then set him alight , the world was horrified, Do you really think GOD could do the same thing ,
I believe in christianity, in the meaning of Jesus existed, was God/Son of God, suffers, died and ressucite (don"t know the english word, sorry). I believe in the biblical scientific theory of Dr Hugh Ross, but I can't, and don"t want to believe in hell. Its no-excuse possible. Plus, you can find some people as good as other to know all bible verses, which have their own "proof" in the opposite theory. And, as lot of people do (but few admit it), I prefer believe to theorist which are in agreement with what I believed first.
All of the arguments one sees for the rightness of Hell seem formulated for the ears of nonbelievers: How does one convince nonbelievers that Hell is just and therefore real? Apparently Christians think this is done by sidestepping that which directly confronts the core issue.
Square off with it. The law belongs to God. If God wants everyone in Hell, that is justice. Whatever the Omnipotent Creator and Ruler of the Universe does is right, no matter what. People are lesser than God. Our opinions do not prevail in the face of omnipotence. If someone doesn't think it's fair that Hell exists, then that person is wrong. God is right, always. He is the maker of reality. Therefore what He decrees is right, always. To Accept the subordinance of humanity is to be in accord with reality. To believe that one's opinion supersedes God's in any way is defiance of reality, which is tantamount to calling God a liar. He doesn't tolerate that.
In Eden, the Serpent accused God of lying. Adam and Eve went along with that. Learning of good versus evil was merely a corollary of a previous sin, believing God a liar. Creatures reproduce after their kind. Adam and Eve became the kind of creatures who disbelieve God, and we are of a kind with them, our ancestors. So here we are, living out the legacy of our progenitors. Every one of us is under the same severe temptation encountered by the Prime Couple.
All God asks of us is that we believe Him, which is eminently reasonable because He can perceive all of reality. No man or woman, no institution, no ethic or creed merits unreserved belief. God does. To disbelieve God is jaw-dropping, insane, cosmic-level, impudence. That is what lands people in Hell: believing our own opinions instead of God.
But that too is a conundrum, isn't it? What if one's belief is that God is always right? Is that also an errant human opinion? God knows what a terrible jam we are in, that our logic is insufficient to serve Him properly, as He deserves. He loves us anyway. That is how unfathomably great He is.
To believe God and lay our intrinsic myopia at the foot of His sacrifice on our behalf is salvation.
God doesn't require us to make excuses for His judgement. He requires us to acknowledge that His judgement is justice, in every case. Read the Book of Job.
Very well said
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God's punishmant is for justice and with reason
Eternal one has no end, as such it has no reasonable result
Even if you could say it is just (which is not) it is by no means merciful or loving
Eternal hell is a lie
And if you want to be able to answer such questions without vain philosophy you can pick either universal salvation or complete destruction of sinners
Both seem to be supported in scripture
Eternal one is not supported at all when you dont translate it wrong or cherry pick verses
With that said, both cant be true
Only one is
Hell is not at all reasonable.
No one asked to be created. If God knows that person would choose love then why would God create a person whose eternal destiny is suffering without end and without relief? That is in no way loving.
This is why the early church fathers like Gregory of Nyssa, Origen and Athanasius believed in the doctrine of the apokatastasis.
For those who think people suffer in hell for all eternity I have a question. If you are a parent, would you torment your child for all eternity? Would you stand there and watch your child suffer for all eternity even though you could stop it? Would that be loving?
To be clear, I am not talking in the abstract, I am talking about your specific actual child or children. Would you watch them suffer and writhe in eternal torment and not stop the pain and suffering even though you could? Under what conditions would you torment your child eternally and call that loving them?
Oh most definitely not.. not even that it doesn’t even makes sense even biblical speaking