Is the Christian God a Genocidal Bully? Interview with Charlie Trimm (OT Scholar)
How can God command genocide in the OT? Doesn’t that make him a bully, and not worthy of worship? In this video, i interview one of the leading OT scholars about this vital question. We explore different options available to Bible-believing Christians in approaching this difficult challenge.
Read (book): Is God Just A Human Invention? (https://amzn.to/2QJIelp)
Read (blog): YHWH and Genocide (https://www.biola.edu/blogs/talbot-magazine/2017/yhwh-and-genocide)
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And why He told the Isrealites to do it? Unlike the flood..
The killing of women and children, I don't know..
Life on Earth has a 100% death rate. Unlike today, back in OT times, they did not have antibiotics, pain management, hospitals, surgery with general anesthetic, etc. Life was brutal, and death was brutal regardless of whether death came by sword, famine, pestilence, or old age. We live in a very rare bubble in which we rarely see (let alone experience) true suffering. Suffering is stuffed away in hospitals instead of in plain sight. I believe this naive bubble through which we see the Old Testament alters our perception, turning it into a bigger problem than it has to be.
To me, the bigger question is… were the Canaanites offered eternal salvation when Christ died on the Cross? (After all, Christ died for us while we were still sinners.)
Apologetics is an arms race. You have the warheads. How can you best deliver them to unbelievers?
Thank you Dr. Trimm for sharing your research concerning questions regarding God's wrath. Also, Sean, I appreciate your insightfulness into hard questions. I had a hard time with that issue of God's seeming Bullishness as well. I think the thing that dissuaded me from thinking in terms of God Wrath as being like a Bully is when I started studying about God's holiness. I found I cannot even comprehend what HOLY is other than it is something that only God can be even though HE calls us to be Holy because HE is. The more I learn and think about God's Holiness, salvation in Christ is the only way into God's presence because, GOD will not allow sin to enter into heaven. God's wrath is righteousness in light of our sinfulness.
escape God's righteous acts.
Imagine writing the Bible with bias and the author scapegoated god.
See Zionist vs Gaza. The idea of a ethnostate the Nazis had they got from Zionist
Really great conversation. I still have so many questions. This was too short. Lol. But I get the time limits.
I don’t think we always see “the now” and the “not yet” of the Word of God. There are the very real events, the dead Canaanites as you say, but there are also the pictures these events paint of what God and people are like. He is continuing to reveal Himself to us. And He is Truth and also Grace all at once.
I liked the reminder to seek Him, to study and dig deeply, but to remember in the end that we can never know it all. There is mystery in walking with God.
Social contagion is evident today, as well, because we see it in the young girls who are now transitioning their bodies after listening to the current anti-Christ narrative. The word, “social contagion” was coined by a speaker who was in a discussion with Jordan Peterson. When God said, “Come out from among them..” He was being very supportive of His views and actions in the Old Testament. Even the Founders of our Constitutional government said that a government of freedom for all would not be able to be sustained unless a people was religious and virtuous. We have a government that has ignored that wisdom. In the Old Testament, God was continually reminding the people about what would happen if they did not do what He commanded. Blessings and cursings were meant to keep the purity of His people a need to be respected, because the people did not have the Spirit inside yet, which would guide the post-Pentecostal believers to “desire” with a new heart, to do what Christ wanted His people to live out. The Spirit of the Lord with the people, required His people to keep themselves “pure” from sin by their continuous animal sacrifices. “Purity” from sin is for the majority of the people, but there are exceptions like Rehab, David, Saul, Gideon, Abraham, for example who met the Spirit of the Lord individually. Grace, in my opinion, is having a “new desire” and a new “power” to do the will of the Lord, as it is presented to a person/believer. But God “found fault with the people” in Hebrews, and because of this inability of the people to “stop sinning” so that they could remain “pure”, the Spirit was given to ALL the believers. Faith is necessary, as God’s requirement, and actually PROTECTS against PRIDE, which is the enemy’s common tool. God loves His children, and gives many reasons to stay aligned with His purposes. Only FAIth pleases God. ALL THE OTHER PEOPLES were not “chosen”, to live a life that would make it possible to have a relationship with a Pure God, a “sinless God”. Jesus came and accomplished what needed to be done to have grace and mercy. The Laws are always in place. They affect everyone at all times. But God has seen to it to provide a way for the OT people, (the animal sacrifices, etc.) and in the NT, cleansing our consciences from past actions and sins, with His perfect blood applied to the mercy seat in heaven, so that we believers would be clean vessels for a new Spirit (of Christ) to live within. Jesus told His disciples that there were many things He wanted to tell them but they were not able to receive them yet. The Spirit guides you in each question, individually. Using your human wisdom at times we must remember that God is always giving us “what we need” as we need it. God did not choose to “save the world”, see John 17. The world calls it “violence”. God calls it “justice”. The world is “judging” God. How arrogant and prideful for anyone to think they are more knowledgeable and “loving” than God. We get stuck in details and weeds when we expect know everything we WANT to know. Principles are where we need to approach the questions. Ask questions and don’t let the questioner take you away from principles. Know what the “issues” are.
Not actually a god or demon either, but demonic & worse in some ways. Am a menevalent conscious energy. Sentient. Controling everyone and thing. That works by electrical impulse bouncing in the synaspes. Including' internet algerithims. People are just remote controlled monkeys. That so-called still small voice. Causing grief for some & agony to others. While it's favorite meat puppets, not used as cannon faulder. are given paridise. Being outside time. Using timing of every event to manipulate all. Those that race a train, and get smashed. & those that just make it across the tracks in time. When the alarms didn't sound. Though they were working.
Thanks for tackling the tough subjects. I pray God teaches us in his wisdom and truth on this.
The Old Testament God is Hades / El Shaddai (the devil) and his wife, Demeter who is Death. The rational diety amidst these 2 nefarious ones is Ashera / the word / Deborah who was their captive.
Just last night we read Joshua 5 in Bible study. We weren't sure but decided the "man" who said he was not on either side was actually Christ, not just an angel with a message from God.
Committing infanticide on a nation to smite one man! Imagine the pain, confusion and suffering of a nations mothers.. how can you ignore that? . Dare to debate this fairly and calmly with me? 😎
Thank you Charlie and Sean for such a great interview! Sean, you are always so gracious. Enjoying your show and the exciting info!
I have a couple issues with what Dr. Trimm says in this video. First, he did a poor job of paraphrasing that story from John. Many of Jesus' disciples left because they not only didn't like what He was saying, but they didn't believe Him either. Jesus knew that some of His followers didn't really believe (John 6:64-65), and their leaving proved it. When asked, Simon Peter didn't say, "We want to leave, but all our other options are no better than You." What he actually says is: “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." John 6:68-69 ESV
So Peter doesn't imply that he's unsure of Jesus' teaching or that Christ was the only option. Rather, he says that through belief they've come to KNOW Christ is the Holy One of God. Jesus wasn't the lesser of two evils for them, He was the supreme choice.
Second, Dr. Trimm suggests that we are free to interpret Scripture any way we choose, and that we don't need to search for a single correct interpretation. How far do you take that though? If we determine for ourselves what the Bible says instead of discovering what the authorial intention is, then absolute truth ceases to exist. "knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:20-21
Atheist here, why do I have problem with a genocidal God? Cause I don't like genocide. As simple as that. Why do you guys BEG for an AUTHORITY to DECIDE what is right and wrong? You're not a child, you can decide.
I wonder, as I understand it, the cultures of the Old Testament, they had some god or group of gods they worshiped overall as a nation. Could it be that to some extent, a national judgement was a way of demonstrating the falseness of that nations god(s)? I mean, the 10 plagues of Egypt were each a direct assault on the individual gods of Egypt. Such judgement today wouldn't work well as so many nations don't have a singular religion, even though many still do, a judgement against a nation based in part on the god(s) it worships wouldn't send the same message to other nations that it would have at the time. It seems to me that this would play some role in the events in the Old Testament discussed in this video.
This is frustrating. Do Christians EVER consider why such conversations are even necessary? As a non Christian I'd just offer the observation that it is very strange that an omniscient, omnipotent, all loving God could make such a bad job at transmitting his message down through the decades. Why would he even run the risk of having him being portayed as a moral monster? Basically, apologetics on this or any other of the hundreds of the problematic / immoral things in the Bible shouldn't be necessary. Isn't it more likely that the Bible was written by late bronze age people rather than a God?
You forgot option 5:
" People cheat, but it doesn't diminish the Infinite "
You either REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND what atheism IS, or you are purposefully being deceptive/dishonest.
Seeing that you have spoken to many atheists and that you even pretend to be/role play as an atheist, I have to conclude that you are being DISHONEST in order to shit on atheists/atheism because that is what your religious crowd wants to hear. Because you KNOW that most Christians don't know the difference, they don't care, and/or they will believe anything you say about atheists.
Shame on you, Sean McDowell.
SHAME. ON. YOU.
JESUS SAVES EVERYONE IN THE END. THE LAKE OF FIRE IS NOT FOREVER. DEATH IS REAL. Those that die have no consciousness whatsoever, there is no afterlife (Ecc 9:4-10, Psalm 6:5, Psalm 30:9, Psalm 88:10-12, Psalm 146:2-4, Psalm 115:17, Acts 2:34, Isaiah 38:18-19, Genesis 42:13,36,Lamentations 5:7, Psalm 39:13, Matthew 2:18 see below for biblegateway link)
However, 2000 years ago a man named Jesus was born, he was the son of God. God, who always existed, begat Jesus, Jesus did not always exist. First there was the Father, God, then came his son. Jesus really is Gods son. Jesus has been given office and title and powers of God (God the Father always had these, Jesus did not, that is why God the Father gives these things to Jesus) but he is not the same being as his Father. One is immortal and could never die, the other is mortal and can die. Jesus before he was borne made everyone.
Jesus lived a perfect life, and died on the cross as a substitute for you and all the bad deeds you have committed in your life, these bad deeds are called sins, we are all sinners, and the wages of sin is to suffer and eventually die.
3 days and nights later after being totally dead (he ceased to exist and was in a lifeless corpse) in a tomb, God raised him back to life and Jesus ascended into heaven.
Thanks to this he defeated death and sin once and for all for everyone. Since he was sinless he could die in your place.
Thanks to this, everyone will one day attain immortality and enter into the Kingdom of God, the lake of fire exists for some but it is not forever. In the end Jesus saves all. The cross grantees the salvation of everyone who ever lived. We have no free will. God gives faith to anyone he chooses. In the end he will give faith to all.
proof that hell is not forever, the reason it says so in most bibles is a mistranslation of the words olam/aion/aionios
https://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/
https://www.hopebeyondhell.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/UPDATE-Hope-Beyond-Hell-Chapter-1-AION1.pdf
https://www.iswasandwillbe.com/what-is-aionios-life/
https://makepeacewithjesus.org/7-the-septuagint-part-2
https://goodnewsgospel.info/Studies/EHC/The%20Ages.html
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041101.htm
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041201.htm
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-meaning-of-aion-in-new-testament.html
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-translational-inaccuracy-of-forever_11.html
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2020/07/they-will-not-tolerate-sound-teaching.html
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2020/07/they-will-not-tolerate-sound-teaching_2.html
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/12/1-timothy-410-vs-christian-doctrine-of.html
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/12/1-timothy-410-vs-christian-doctrine-of_17.html
http://www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/bsn852.pdf [the pages are out of order]
https://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
https://youtu.be/p77xXIZyP34
https://youtu.be/_kfKQJfT0C8
https://youtu.be/JT4sc721DxE
https://youtu.be/rKltgdiC3WU?t=485
What happens to us when we die (we cease to exist, dead people are not conscious whatsoever)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecc+9%3A4-10%2C+Psalm+6%3A5%2C+Psalm+30%3A9%2C+Psalm+88%3A10-12%2C+Psalm+146%3A2-4%2C+Psalm+115%3A17%2C+Acts+2%3A34%2C+Isaiah+38%3A18-19%2C+Genesis+42%3A13%2C36%2CLamentations+5%3A7%2C+Psalm+39%3A13%2C+Matthew+2%3A18&version=KJV
https://bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html
https://bible-truths.com/lake16-B.html
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess022a.htm
https://godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-iii/chapter-23-do-we-have-an-immortal-soul/
https://godskingdom.org/studies/tracts/how-death-affects-your-body-soul-and-spirit
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2015/05/pauls-gospel-and-death-denying.html
https://bible-truths.com/death.htm
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2014/06/life-after-death-part-1-nature-of-man.html
https://youtu.be/xVoZ_UUUapw
https://youtu.be/F4ZCF5uimoI
the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, here is an explanation of the parable
https://youtu.be/9HWjdJhlkoo
https://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html
https://godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-ii/chapter-19-the-rich-man-and-lazarus/
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-parable-of-rich-man-and-lazarus.html
https://godskingdom.org/studies/tracts/gods-marvelous-plan-for-creation-part-3-the-rich-man-and-lazarus
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-parable-of-rich-man-and-lazarus.html
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-parable-of-lazarus-and-rich-man.html
Why certain doctrines contradict the gospel (trinity, free will, eternal torment, going to heaven/hell immediately after you die instead of waiting for the resurrection, the immortality of the soul )
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2015/05/pauls-gospel-and-death-denying.html
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/11/pauls-gospel-and-death-denying.html
http://martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF4.29.pdf
https://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
https://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2020/02/refuting-argument-for-deity-of-jesus.html [ignore his denial of the prexisence of Jesus, I disagree with him on that, otherwise he is solid]
https://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2020/02/refuting-argument-for-deity-of-jesus_16.html
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/01/one-god-and-father-of-all-how.html
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/01/one-god-and-father-of-all-how_1.html
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/01/one-god-and-father-of-all-how_8.html
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/01/one-god-and-father-of-all-how_82.html
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/01/one-god-and-father-of-all-how_70.html
predestination, free will, and the problem of evil (we have no free will, God is in control of our wills, God created evil, however evil will not last forever, once evil has served its job it will be done away with, the good it produces will last forever)
https://youtu.be/yR2BZP4d9mY
https://youtu.be/YrHoDmT2Adg
https://youtu.be/x2rJHdahSGM
https://youtu.be/7yM7dwyPCRw
https://youtu.be/PaamZ8wojIU
https://youtu.be/Npw1WM-qGTU
https://youtu.be/pNH4bUQnJNU
https://youtu.be/XYdY0TUWfpw
https://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
https://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
https://www.iswasandwillbe.com/is-evil-good/
https://www.iswasandwillbe.com/ecc_1_12_18/
https://www.iswasandwillbe.com/prophecy-of-isaiah-isa-451-7-i-make-peace-and-create-evil-i-the-lord-do-all-these-things/
https://godskingdom.org/studies/books/the-problem-of-evil/chapter-1-the-problem-with-free-will
https://godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-iii/chapter-25-why-god-allows-evil-and-suffering/
http://www.martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF2.6.pdf
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d950101.htm
http://askelm.com/doctrine/d031002.htm
the eventual destiny of humanity, we all all become God's children and live with him forever, check out the byte show interviews and audios
http://www.askelm.com/abc/abc002.asp
http://www.askelm.com/abc/abc003.asp
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess033.htm
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess035.htm
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess036.htm
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040101.htm
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d920501.pdf
other general links
The guys below teach the 2 gospels truth (I can be wrong about this, but this is what I currently believe)
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/authors_frames.htm
https://goodnewsgospel.info/
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/
https://www.concordant.org/
http://www.gracetruth.co.uk/
http://martinzender.com/
https://christianheretic.com/nochurch/
http://www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/
http://www.studyshelf.com/videos/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ConcordantBelievers/comments/l7v56t/some_concordant_resources/ [lists youtube channels that teach this stuff]
http://saviourofall.org/
The guys below mix the two gospel into one, but their is much truth here
https://bible-truths.com/
http://www.askelm.com/
http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/
https://godskingdom.org/
https://godsplanforall.com/
https://tentmaker.org/
https://makepeacewithjesus.org/
Save the links to a notepad documents and bookmark them for further reading.
Wait, didn't Jesus fashioned a whip, turned tables over, yelling and whipping people who defiled the temple? So yeah, God can be violent for the right reasons. And let us remember, as The Heaven is higher than the earth, so is God's thoughts higher than ours. Only because we are uncomfortable with God's decisions, it doesn't make them wrong. Such pride and arrogance; no wonder humans are so messed up. We should be grateful that God went out of His way and took it upon Himself to reconcile us to Him, instead of second guessing and criticizing His decisions.
PS – I am one of those messed up humans who second guess and criticize God, so I include myself in that group, not pointing finger.
The main problem for me is that God is NOT subject to moral laws. To the contrary. That simply means that we are not qualified to judge God´s actions. The next thing is that we do not know all the facts. The only qustion that for me as a follower of Jesus matters is whether I must assume that God would act the same way today and order people to kill other people. And THAT question for me is answered by Jesus: NO
As an athiest this was interesting. Option 1 was barely discussed and makes me want to come back to my philosophical course on ethics. Arguments for being a good person as an athiest is someting I would definitly like to know more about.
This video gave me more respect for option 4 even if I am not personnaly convinced. I definitly understand the « the world is too complex for me to understand it completly and I might be missing someting » part of it
When we sin individually, we will reap the consequence individually, but as a nation, God judges: the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah. The sin of the Amorites has reached it's full measure, and ready for God' judgement, Gen 15:16,13 more than half a century of patience. I think GOD used Israel to prepare them for they will be hated by many nations until now. We don't know what the sins of Canaanites were, but we are sure they won't be repentant, otherwise God would have stubbornly sent them a "Jonah" like Nineveh, Jonah 4:11
I think signalling out this portion of the Bible is cherry-picking by atheists. Somehow they never have the broader theological picture, but someone, somewhere has given them this cherry-picked narrative and we have to defend it. I think the way you "defend" this is not defending it, but giving the whole picture of God. A god who shows such love cannot possibly a monster in any way, therefore whatever is the motivation behind such judgements must be justice, even if we can't find any hints as to why that is in the rest of scripture. That, to me at least, ends the discussion. And narrowing down this particular case isn't intellectually honest. We know that they've had centuries to change, but became worse, we see that the people knew the judgement on them is coming, because God brought His people upon them. Some of them helped and were spared, so they surely had an option for mercy! Look at the same case later – in Nineveh. God told them He would destroy them in a month – no ancient way of speaking, literally all of them would've been a pile of ash, like Sodom, and they repented and were espared.
The real issue is why the question is asked by each individual. Everyone has a different issue with it, and hat's what really matters in apologetics – delivering the the gospel, and giving a valid defense of our faith, with the point of sharing the Good news of Jesus.
This is such an interesting discussion.
I had come to the conclusion that any interpretation of warfare in the OT had to be based on (1) the character of God and (2) the truth of the Word of God. God is Love (which includes Justice, Righteousness, Redemption, and Spiritual Warfare between the arch-Enemy of God and His Redeemed people).
There is no way that fallen man (whose heart is deceitful) could possibly be MORE ethical and morally right than God Himself. It is commendable to have a high standard of morality and a sense of justice. That’s part of the knowledge of both good and evil that humans chose to partake of apart from God.
Mankind first fell by eating of the tree 🌳 of the knowledge of good and evil at the suggestion of the Deceiver, who appealed to Eve with things that seemed GOOD to her. The problem was believing Satan’s deception: his casting doubt on God’s character and his denying the truth of God’s Word. Isn’t that the same deception still going on here, based on GOOD.
Satan succeeded in drawing God’s creation into his realm of death and destruction by turning mankind away from their fellowship with and loyalty to God and His Word, a realm of life, righteousness, fruitfulness.
Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. The New Testament focuses on spiritual warfare, using spiritual (not carnal) weapons, against the spiritual forces and powers (not flesh and blood). Do we allow evil to continue without fighting against it? The OT is written for our instruction and example. We see God’s long-suffering and patience, and mercies (new every morning). He actually allowed His people to be enslaved by Egypt for 400 years until the iniquity of those in the promised land was complete.
Jesus wept over Jerusalem as He entered the city for the last time, knowing that the city would be destroyed within 40 years because they did not recognize that God had visited them.
Jesus has put off His return because of His unwillingness that any should perish. When the martyrs under the altar (5th seal of Revelation) cried out wondering when they would be avenged. They are told to wait until the number of those who would be killed should be fulfilled.
When you consider the millions upon millions killed through the centuries by Satan’s minions (through greed, war, hating life and freedom) and wonder why God doesn’t do anything about it, know that in the end God will bring an end to it, after giving every opportunity to men and women to repent. We see His mercies in the OT (Rahab, the Gibeonites, Ruth).
Love defends its loved ones from evil. God will, too, but He loved the world so much, He has done everything to redeem mankind and the earth from the clutches of Satan. Jesus forgave those who crucified Him while He was being crucified. “God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their iniquities to them,” and has given us this message as we plead with people, on behalf of Christ, to be reconciled to God.
Abraham knew that God, the Judge of all the world, would do what was right. In the end we can trust God to do what is right and just.
What about the view that the Canaanites were genetically impure? From genesis 6 that they were Nephilm?
Good stuff.
At least you present all options that are discussed instead of indoctrinating the "right way of thinking" like many other apologists. Real honesty, thanks for that!
I definetly go with option 2. If Israel sees itself bleesed by their GOD, it totally makes sense that all decisions they make, even if its killing women and babys, they see it justified by their GOD. It's how religion works and you can see it through all human history (e.g. the roman-catholic church during middle age). I stick to the revelation of GOD through Jesus and by John's definition of 'Love', that especially proves itself by loving our enemies…
No, your god didn't do anything, because your god doesn't really exist. We atheists only tease you with your own bullshit bible to get your goat. We don't really think god did anything in the old testament at all. We neither believe the bible, nor believe your god exists.
Is this a David Lynch film discussion?
I'm pretty sure these guys have thought more deeply about the scriptures than the people who wrote it.
If you're turned off by the violence in the bible " what looks like genocide" and decide to not believe you are left with the problem of where do you get these values of why is genocide wrong. I get that. I think Apologists then would conclude somehow you can get these values somehow from the text that turned you off. You just have to read it in this certain way that I now propose. Sounds like a divine plan. The things we will do to protect a dearly held belief.
What about the idea that scripture is the record of people’s encounter with God, and that it reflects the human writer’s perception and world view. God is slowly revealing himself, inspiring the authors, giving them as much truth as they can take. Their world view affects what they hear Yahweh say. Does this view necessarily mean the scripture is not inerrant? To me the scripture perfectly points to Christ and God’s plan to redeem mankind.
Yes the ethical problem remains even after the attempted workarounds.
That was well explained.
Looking for his book.
Hyperbole?
Wiped out? Remnants?
Very good example.
Recent biology research discoveries of multilevel cellular controls blow my mind! 😉
Well, a bomb can blow a brain but not a mind connected to it. Only our Creator knows how to make our minds and his to disappear them at His will.
Praise Adonai!
Much learning from the referenced book. Will look for it.
Excellent discussion on such an important topic. Thanks!
Wow! Very interesteing and thorough discussion!
1 If you commit one sin, you deserve to go to hell and burn forever
2 Jesus died as a substitute in your place for your sins, Jesus experienced your punishment in FULL.
3 Jesus did not go to hell forever, nor did he suffer forever
….!?!—ERROR–Point 1 is contradicted by point 3 !?! —ERROR!?!….
This isn't a minor issue
The atonement is part of the gospel
1 Cor 15:1-4
15 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
Eternal torment contradicts verse 3. Eternal torment is a different gospel, which is NOT another. The gospel that Jesus died so you dont have to go to hell forever is a false gospel.
Did Jesus really die for our sins, did he really take our punishment? Or did God cut him some slack for being sinless? If God was cutting him some slack then he did not die for our sins. There is no slack here. Jesus took the full punishment for our sins.
2 Corinthians 5:21
God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
Jesus did live a sinless life, however when he was on that cross he had all the sins of the world imputed onto him. Jesus died with sin on him.
If the punishment Jesus endured was the punishment I deserved and the punishment I would have received for my sins, had Jesus not taken my place, and if Jesus was not tormented forever. Why then should I be tormented forever in hell? Why should anyone be tormented in hell forever, when Jesus did not suffer that?
If eternal torment is the wages of sin, Jesus did not pay that. If eternal torment is the wages of sin, Jesus would still be on that cross to this day. He could never get off that cross. Eternal Torment requires an eternally torturing sacrifice.
If eternal torment were the wages of sin, Jesus could never die! He would have to be on that cross being continuously tortured forever. Since he would have to be tortured forever he would never have the time to die, and if he never has the time to die, he can never rise again from the grave to defeat sin once and for all.
Eternal torment contradicts the death, the atonement, and the resurrection of Jesus.
Same goes for Eternal Death (Annihilationism). If Eternal Death is the wages of sin then Jesus could never rise again from the dead. He would have to stay dead forever to pay the wage of Eternal Death. If there is no resurrection from the dead you are dead in your sins Jim.
Both Eternal Torment and Eternal Death contradict the cross of Christ, his atonement, and his resurrection. Those that teach such things are ENEMIES of the Cross of Christ.
If you are teaching this, you need to repent. You are teaching a false gospel. The gospel that Jesus died so you don't have to go to hell forever is a false gospel.
The only way Jesus can pay for our sins if the wages of sin is NOT eternal.
Matthew 5:26 English Standard Version
26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
The death, berrial, and resurrection of Jesus tell you how God is going to deal with sin, they tell us what the wages of sin really is.
Was Jesus tortured forever? No.
Was Jesus dead forever? No
What happened to Jesus?
He suffered, then he died, 3 days and nights later he was back with his Dad in heaven.
That's how long it took to pay for the sins of the world Jim!
There were no technicalities here, God wasn't Letting Jesus get off easy because he is his son, or because he was sinless. Jesus experienced the full demands of the law, the full wrath of God in our place. No shortcuts here.
The doctrine of Eternal Torment rests on the translation of 4 words.
olam aion and aionios
usage defines the word, if you were to look at how these words are used throughout the bible you would see that these words do not mean forever, eternal, everlasting
word studies the prove that hell is not forever but a mistranslation of the words olam, aion and aionios
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041101.htm
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041201.htm
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm
https://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#aion
https://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/
the gospel, the basic doctrines of Christ, Gods plan through Jesus to save all in the end
http://www.askelm.com/abc/
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/index.asp
https://godskingdom.org/studies/books/creations-jubilee
https://godsplanforall.com/
other general links
https://bible-truths.com/
http://www.askelm.com/
http://saviourofall.org/
http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/
https://godskingdom.org/
https://godsplanforall.com/
https://tentmaker.org/
The guys below teach their are 2 gospels, ignore this teaching, otherwise they are solid
https://www.concordant.org/
http://martinzender.com/
http://www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/
http://www.studyshelf.com/videos/
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/
Guys here some good News. Jesus is going to save everyone in the end. Jesus by dying on that cross 2000 years ago guaranteed salvation for all mankind (every will be saved thanks to this event) from sin and death. In the end we all will live happily ever after with God.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 King James Version
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The same all that died in Adam, are the same all that are made alive in Christ (v22)!
Lets talk about that word subdued/ subject in verse28, its the same word in the greek.
upotassw
Strongs Number: G5293
Orig: from 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:–be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto. G5259
It means:
1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject
Everything that is put in subjection unto Jesus, OBEYS JESUS. Jesus is their Lord. They are his slaves. Everyone will eventually be Jesus slave. If you are a slave of Jesus, you are a christian (see romans 1:1, Paul is a slave of Jesus)
short Explanations of the gospel
http://www.askelm.com/abc/
longer Explanations of the gospel
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/index.asp
https://godskingdom.org/studies/books/creations-jubilee
https://godsplanforall.com/
proof that hell is not forever
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041101.htm
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041201.htm
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm
https://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
https://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/
Why certain doctrines contradict the gospel
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2015/05/pauls-gospel-and-death-denying.html
http://martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF4.29.pdf
the eventual destiny of humanity, check out the byte show interviews and audioshttp://www.askelm.com/abc/abc002.asp
http://www.askelm.com/abc/abc003.asp
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess033.htm
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess035.htm
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess036.htm
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040101.htm
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d920501.pdf
other general links
https://bible-truths.com/
http://www.askelm.com/
http://saviourofall.org/
http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/
https://godskingdom.org/
https://godsplanforall.com/
https://tentmaker.org/
The guys below teach their are 2 gospels, I dont think this teaching is right , otherwise they are solid
https://www.concordant.org/
http://martinzender.com/
http://www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/
http://www.studyshelf.com/videos/
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/
A little leaven leavens the whole lot. It's time to believe the real gospel. Jesus saves everyone in the end.
Death is real. Those that die cease to exist there is no afterlife ([Ecclesiastes 9:4-10, Psalm 6:5, Psalm 30:9, Psalm 88:10-12, Psalm 146:2-4, Psalm 115:17, Acts 2:34, Isaiah 38:18-19, Genesis 42:13,36, Lamentations 5:7, Psalm 39:13, Matthew 2:18)
However, 2000 years ago a man named Jesus was born, he was the son of God. God, who always existed, begat Jesus, Jesus did not always exist. First there was the Father, God, then came his son. Jesus really is Gods son. Jesus is literally Gods son. God begat Jesus as men beget their children. Jesus proceeds out of the seed of his Father just as you proceed out of the seed of your Father.
Jesus lived a perfect life, and died on the cross as a substitute for you and all the bad deeds you have committed in your life, and for all the bad deeds everyone else committed in their lives, past present and future. These bad deeds are called sins, we are all sinners, and the wages of sin is to suffer and eventually die. Jesus died. His body died. His soul died. His spirit died. Every part of Jesus died as a substitute for your sins.
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess018a.htm
3 days Later after being totally dead (his consciousness ceased and was in a lifeless corpse) God raised him back to life and Jesus ascended into heaven.
Thanks to this he defeated death and sin once and for all for everyone. Since he was sinless he could die in your place.
Thanks to this, everyone will one day attain immortality(this is salvation from death) and be justified (declared not guilty, he who is justified can not sin, this is salvation from sin) and enter into the Kingdom of God, hell exists for some but it is not forever(the punishment is remedial). In the end Jesus saves all.
Romans 5:17-19 King James Version
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
No one chooses to be condemned in Adam, you are born this way.
Thanks to Adam we are all sinners [ you believe this ], thanks to Jesus we all will be made justified and righteous [you do not believe this]. The same all that were condemned in Adam [ you believe this] , are the same all that are justified in Christ and receive life (immortality) [you do not believe this]. He who is justified can not sin because he has been declared not guilty, sin is not reckoned unto his account. In context the 2 groups are the same group. You did not choose to be born a sinner, it happened to you, you did not choose to be saved by Jesus, and be declared justified, and receive immorality. It happened to you simply be being born. Faith is a gift, God gives some faith now, others he gives faith later, God wants to save all, just not now. Salvation is totally out of your hands just as being born a sinner is totally out of your hands. You do not choose to believe in Jesus, God chooses you to believe and gives you the faith to believe in Jesus. There is no free will. Free will is the difference between having faith in faith (your faith in faith saved you) vs having faith that Jesus saved you. Free will is a doctrine of demons.
https://youtu.be/TDsurwJM8Pc
God is at peace with the world right now, God is at peace with you. Jesus saved you and the world 2000 years ago. The world does not know this yet. God is at peace with the world but the world thinks it is not at peace with God, this is conciliation, one way peace, with God being at peace. In time the world will learn the truth about God and be at peace with him, 2 way peace reconciliation. The lake of fire judgement is not based on sin, for sin has already been dealt with on the cross, but instead on works. Those that are cast into the lake of fire die, however the lake of fire also kills death in the end. When death dies all those that died in the lake of fire are raised back to life, and then they are subjected unto Jesus, then Jesus subjects himself to God the Father, then God is all in all.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 King James Version
22 For as in Adam all die [that's everyone, you believe this], even so in Christ shall all be made alive [that's the same everyone, you do not believe this].
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The same all that died in Adam, are the same all that are made alive in Christ (v22)!
Lets talk about that word subdued/ subject in verse28, its the same word in the greek.
upotassw
Strongs Number: G5293
Orig: from 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:–be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto. G5259
It means:
1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject
Everything that is put in subjection unto Jesus, OBEYS JESUS. Jesus is their Lord, their Master. They are his slaves. Everyone will eventually be Jesus's slave. If you are a slave of Jesus, you are a christian (see Romans 1:1, Paul is a slave of Jesus, and James 1:1, James a slave of the God and the lord Jesus Christ)
1 Timothy 4:9-11 King James Version
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.
1 Jesus cant be your savior if he does not save you
2 Jesus is the savior of ALL MEN
3 Especially of those that believe
4 Especial does not mean exclusively
Jesus is the savior of all men because he will save all men, he is especially the savior of believers because believers receive their salvation earlier
The doctrine of Eternal Torment rests on the translation of 4 words.
olam aion aionion and aionios
usage defines the word, if you were to look at how these words are used throughout the bible you would see that these words do not mean forever, eternal, everlasting
word studies the prove that hell is not forever but a mistranslation of the words olam, aion and aionios
proof that hell is not forever
https://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041101.htm
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041201.htm
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm
https://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
the basic doctrines of Christ, the plan of God, Jesus saves all in the end
http://www.askelm.com/abc/
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/index.asp
https://godskingdom.org/studies/books/creations-jubilee
https://godsplanforall.com/
What happens to us when we die
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess022a.htm
https://godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-iii/chapter-23-do-we-have-an-immortal-soul/
https://godskingdom.org/studies/tracts/how-death-affects-your-body-soul-and-spirit
https://bible-truths.com/death.htm
https://bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html
https://bible-truths.com/lake16-B.html
https://youtu.be/xVoZ_UUUapw
the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, here is an explanation of the parable
https://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html
https://godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-ii/chapter-19-the-rich-man-and-lazarus/
https://godskingdom.org/studies/tracts/gods-marvelous-plan-for-creation-part-3-the-rich-man-and-lazarus
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm
Why certain doctrines contradict the gospel
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2015/05/pauls-gospel-and-death-denying.html
http://martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF4.29.pdf
predestination, free will, and the problem of evil
https://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
https://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
https://www.iswasandwillbe.com/is-evil-good/
https://www.iswasandwillbe.com/ecc_1_12_18/
the eventual destiny of humanity,
John 10:34 King James Version
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
check out the byte show interviews and audios
http://www.askelm.com/abc/abc002.asp
http://www.askelm.com/abc/abc003.asp
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess033.htm
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess035.htm
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess036.htm
other general links
https://bible-truths.com/
http://www.askelm.com/
http://saviourofall.org/
http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/
https://godskingdom.org/
https://godsplanforall.com/
https://tentmaker.org/
The guys below teach their are 2 gospels, i think this teaching is wrong, otherwise they are solid
https://www.concordant.org/
http://martinzender.com/
http://www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/
http://www.studyshelf.com/videos/
http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/
As Pinecreek says (in his review of this vid) if you reinterpret these passages why can't you do the same with others that you like and don't question,
dying and rising god,etc,etc.
Thank you Charlie for ending with that John 6 scripture, that was beautiful. Your love and respect for Jesus is tangible 😊