Why the Case for Christianity Fails to Prove Mormonism
For more information, read Cold-Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels (http://amzn.to/2AW8bc5)
Read: Investigating The Evidence For Mormonism In Six Steps
Is it possible to make the case for Mormonism in the same way one might make the case for Christianity? Is it possible to make a case for Mormonism in an evidential way? What is the difference between the two worldviews and the way one might defend each of them? Detective Jimmy Wallace (J. Warner’s son) tackles these questions as part of his Incarnate Investigation Video Series.
source
Click to rate this post!
[Total: 0 Average: 0]
Just Christian ever since Antioch when they were first called Christian. Rev. 3 I know your works, you say you have a name that's alive and you are dead. (Denominations are divisions) God doesn't do dead things. That is why scripture says- no two are in agreement. Check out the KJV. Antichrist is the name John gave to the "many" Christ warned of, not one man. The word "the" was added to new age copyrighted amputated and manipulated versions in 1958.
Matt. 24:5 = 1 Jn. 2:18.
That's why it says "as you have heard."
Mormonism is a cult. Secret practices, heavenly marriage, becoming a god yourself. These ideas are unbiblical. The argument against our Bible the LDS uses is an indictment as to the very qualities of God. Moreover, Smith practiced the occult which is forbidden in the Bible. The “angel” Moroni has the root word Moros which is Satan. We should be sending missionaries to Mormon churches on repentance and acceptance of Jesus as God. The God who is the alpha and omega
These sorts of philosophical realizations were my first steps outside of Mormonism.
You do a much better job than I could. The gift of transcendence opened the door for John Smith (or whatever his name was, I don't care) to become transcendent. That should have been a problem immediately. Again, you did a much better job of talking through all of this, thank you.
Amen✝️🙏☝️☝️❤️
Thank you for your honest video. Thinking deeply about your points. I’d like to dive deeper you mentioned other videos on this subject. You can’t disseminate all your knowledge in a couple videos. How can I continue this conversation of learning more down this avenue of Mormonism vs Christianity? so many disaffected LDS are leaving God because they believe Joseph is a fraud they jump the logical fallacy then God is a fraud also. Their leaders are not leaving the 99 to go reclaim them so it’s a tragedy. If you get exed the membership won’t communicate with the “prodigal” for fear of being led astray that their leaders instill in them in Gen conference. I want to help restore people’s faith in God.
Joseph Smith also added to scripture in the book of revelation, condemns anyone who does so nothing he says is true.
Mormons don’t believe that Jesus is God even their Called JC of the lds so this means they don’t believe in the trinity but that He is satans brother so a created being like an angel or us. Just take them and JW’s to Isaiah 44 God says I am the beginning and the end then take em to Rev 22 Jesus says I am the Beginning and the end
I'm a gay ex-Catholic, and ex-Mormon, but I still believe in a lot of aspects of the LDS faith, especially the Book of Mormon. I don't have a hard time believing that Christianity got corrupted over the centuries. Now I pick and choose what I believe based on Mormon and Christian teachings. I can't make heads or tails of Joseph Smith. There's no doubt in my mind that the LDS Church has whitewashed its history (because all organizations do). At the same time, I think a lot of people have an agenda against Joseph Smith. So I don't know.
That's why I don't go to church. Pretty much every church teaches something that's a dealbreaker for me. I'm more conservative, but conservative churches want me to be single and celibate my whole life (or get married to someone of the opposite sex–no thanks). Liberal churches are too liberal. The good news is we can be taught by the Holy Spirit if we seek the Holy Spirit. We don't have to go to a church.
Speaking as an Anglican I greatly appreciate how you explained the significance of reason as key to Christianity. Scripture, tradition, and reason are the 3 pillars of Anglican theology. Scripture being the primary authority and supported by tradition and reason. The mormon missionaries I encountered today talk about how the church lost its legitimacy after the death of the 12 apostles. This completely ignores the conversion and ministry of Saint Paul as well as apostolic succession. If we disagree on apostolic succession, that's fine. But in saying the church died with the apostles they completely negate their work and martyrdom. I am especially thinking of Saints Peter and Paul.
Would a clearer title for this be "Logical Problems with the Mormon Concept of God"?
Dang…just asked this question.
To any LDS members I urge you please to do as I did Study Biblical Hebrew. Biblical Hebrew as you would expect from an All Powerful and knowing God is one of the most sophisticated and unique written languages. For example; There are hidden messages throughout the Bible. God knowing the hearts of men would try to distort His word and message Hid the gospel in coded forms throughout scripture. Every letter has a meaning and also a numerical value which also has a meaning. When the Bible was written the scribes added the numerical value up for that page. That number has a specific meaning. If the number did not add up to the exact number of the page they were copying they would tear it up and start again. That is why the Historical Bibles (over 5000) have an accuracy of 99.6%. Other books written at that time (Gaelic wars of Caesar copies, Homers Iliad copies) do not come close. You can study Biblical Hebrew online through the University of Israel. How much is your soul and souls of your children/family worth risking in seeking the truth?
Is the book of Mormon a trusted source of Archaeological history of Mesoamerica?
In 1955, Thomas Stuart Ferguson, (a devout LDS Member) an attorney and the founder of the NWAF, received five years of funding from the LDS Church and the NWAF then began to dig throughout Mesoamerica for evidence of the veracity of the Book of Mormon claims. In a 1961 newsletter, Ferguson predicted that although nothing had been found, the Book of Mormon cities would be found within 10 years. The NWAF became part of BYU in 1961 and Ferguson was removed from the director position.
In 1976, fifteen years removed from any archaeological involvement with the NWAF, referring to his own paper, Ferguson wrote a letter in which he stated:
The real implication of the paper is that you can't set the Book-of-Mormon geography down anywhere—because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt-archaeology. I should say—what is in the ground will never conform to what is in the book.
He left the LDS Church. In contrast, archaeologically Biblical towns with very small populations provide a great source of Archaeological finds.
The Sad thing with Mormonism is that their belief is a convoluted system that they themselves don't fully know the contradictions too:
Doctrine
How many Gods
are there?
Book of Mormon
One God
Alma 11:27-39,44; 2 Nephi 31:21;
Mormon 7:7; 3 Nephi 11:27;
Testimony of the Three Witnesses;
P.G.P. Moses 2 &3
Doctrine of Covenants
Many Gods
D&C 121:32; 132:18-20,27;
P.G.P. Abraham 4 & 5 4:1 “…
the Gods, organized and formed
the heavens and the earth.”
Doctrine
Does God
change his
word?
Book of Mormon
No
Alma 41:8 “the decrees of God are
unalterable”
Doctrine of Covenants
Yes D&C 56:4,5 “Wherefore I,
the Lord, command and revoke,
as it seemeth one good; … I
revoke the commandment which
was given … and give a new
commandment…” No D&C
20:17 “there is a God in heaven,
who is infinite and eternal, from
everlasting to everlasting the
same unchangeable God, the
framer of heaven and earth, and
all things which are in them.”
Doctrine
Is God a spirit?
Book of Mormon
Yes
Alma 18:26-28; Alma 22:8-11; D&C
93:23
Doctrine of Covenants
No D&C 130:22 “The Father has
a body of flesh and bones as
tangible as man’s; the Son also;”
Yes D&C 93:23 “Ye were also in
the beginning with the Father;
that which is Spirit ….”
Doctrine
Mormons when as part of their Missionary work will say that they are not trying to convert you which is a lie and they are taught to say this.
Can God Lie or participate in a lie?
Book of Mormon
No Ether 3:12 “… Yea, Lord, I know
that thou speakest the truth, for thou
art a God of truth, and canst not lie.”
Doctrine of Covenants
Yes P.G.P. Abraham 2:22-25
“the Lord said unto me… Let her
say unto the Egyptians, she is
thy sister, and thy soul shall
live.”
Doctrine
Did God create
everything?
Book of Mormon
Yes Jacob 4:9 2 Nephi
2:14 “for there is a God, and he hath
created all things, both the heavens
and the earth.” 2 Nephi 2:13 “And if
there is no God we are not, neither
the earth; for there could have been
no creation of things, neither to act
nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all
things must have vanished away.”
Doctrine of Covenants
No D&C 93:29 “…Intelligence,
or the light of truth, was not
created or made, neither indeed
can be.”
Doctrine
Are we justified
by faith?
Book of Mormon
Yes 2 Nephi 2:5 “… And the law is
given unto men, And by the law no
flesh is justified; or, by the law men
are cut off.”
Doctrine of Covenants
No 88:36-39 “All kingdoms have
a law given; … and unto every
law there are certain bounds also
and conditions. All beings who
abide not in those conditions are
not justified.”
Doctrine
Does Jesus
fulfill the law?
Book of Mormon
Yes 2 Nephi 2:7 “Behold, he offereth
himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer
the ends of the law … and unto none
else can the ends of the law be
answered.” No 3 Nephi 15:9 “Behold,
I am the law, and the light. Look unto
me, and endure to the end, and ye
shall live; for unto him that endureth
to the end will I give eternal life.”
Doctrine of Covenants
No 88:21-34 “And they who are
not sanctified through the law
which I have given unto you,
even the law of Christ, must
inherit another kingdom…”
Doctrine
Is Jesus the
mediator
between God and Man?
Book of Mormon
Yes 2 Nephi 2:27 “men are free to
choose eternal life through the great
Mediator of all men” 2 Nephi 2:9 “inasmuch as he shall make
intercession for all the children of
men; and they that believe in him
shall be saved.”
Doctrine of Covenants
No Brigham Young Journal of
Discourses Vol. 7 p 289 “No
man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter the
celestial kingdom of God without
the consent of Joseph Smith …
Every man and woman must
have the certificate of Joseph
Smith, junior, as a passport to
their entrance into the mansion
where God and Christ are …
There are many more important doctrinal contradictions this is just a few.
Good video, but you started with a fatal flaw. These argument’s do not attempt prove the Christian God, if they are true, they only prove that a God exists. Common Christian fallacy
This is good! I often see people refute Mormonism by attacking Joseph Smith (and rightfully so) but I too have found these philosophical proofs to be the final nail in the coffin against Mormonism.
Its just like in catholicism..
Amen…
'Historic Christianity'? What do you mean by that phrase? The Christianity that took shape post Nicea is far removed from the Christianity of the NT.
This was a fair representation of LDS doctrine and it holds two arguments I have never heard before. The LDS rebuttal to these two arguments I think would be as follows:
1. Matter is eternal and cannot be destroyed or created but it can be organized. This is in agreement with the law of conservation of mass as well as Einstein’s theory of special relativity. Mormons believe that God organized matter from chaos to create the universe. The big bang also agrees with this, matter didn't begin to exist, "All matter and energy of the entire visible universe was contained in a hot dense point called gravitational singularity; a billionth the size of a nuclear particle." (The Early Universe Explained by Neil Degrasse Tyson)
Mormons and Christians agree that God is an eternal being with no beginning and no end. If a Christian asks, "Where did God come from?" there's no easy answer outside of the idea that he is eternal in nature and has always existed. Mormons would say that we are all eternal beings and that we all have no beginning. We began as intelligence, light, and energy. We were formed into spirits by our Heavenly Father, and we were given a place to live in physical bodies here on earth. Where did God come from? A Mormon would say that God came from the same place you did.
Mainstream Christians are still faced with an entity that appears to have no beginning. The existence of God. If there is no room for an infinite series in Christianity, then there is no room for the infinite series that is the "life" or "existence" of God.
2. Mormons believe that the laws of the universe are immutable, just like matter, and just like God. These laws were never created, they are eternal. When imperfect humans (ie. all of us) break an eternal law we must pay the consequences of such a law. This is why God sacrificed his son Jesus Christ. Only a perfect divine being could pay the debt that was created by our sin. Nobody created these laws, this is how the universe has worked from the begining. All matter, all people, all eternal beings and spirits are subject to these laws. They have no creator.
If God wants a sinful, unrepentant man, who has not accepted Jesus, to live with him forever could he create a law that allowed that? Most Christians would have to say yes. If God created the laws of the universe surely he could create another. This implies that we are all just pawns in an omnipotent beings chess game. He can decide our eternal fate based on any whim.
Oppose that to a Mormon's perspective. God is God because he has perfected himself, and has utter mastery of the laws of the universe. This is what is meant in the following Mormon scripture, “Do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God” (Alma 42:25). God, out of "mercy", cannot break the law of "justice".
I am a Mormon and I Love the way you presented this argument. So many get caught up in the simpler inconsistencies they find or repeats of previous arguments without having gone to see what LDS actually say about those subjects. I can tell you took your time on this subject and it is one that I have been consulting in myself researching philosophical reasoning to believe in God one that is used well to change the hearts of Atheists and strengthen the Christian. The common reply that I keep hearing on the LDS side of this is that we don't know much about it. Some could take this to mean God is giving us a hint or that Joseph took a concept of eternity to an extreme. Many LDS now wonder about this subject in particular and I'm glad you brought it up clearly and with respect to what we believe and understand about what these things mean. I'll be thinking and praying about this more. It'd be great if yall could pray for me to find the truth as well. Thanks
Not all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, believe as the Hypothetical Brother in his comments.
What the creator of this video is attempting to do is to disprove a theological belief by invoking the inability to comprehend an infinite past where there is no beginning. The THEORY, not fact but widely accepted philosophy, of the Big Bang would dictate that ALL things had a beginning, including God. God is made of matter, and ALL mater under the Big Bang theory was compressed inside of an infinitely small particle. So if God existed outside of the singularity, then you would have to make an exemption which would begin to dismantle the Big Bang theory. You would also have to ask the question, “If God existed outside of the singularity, what else could have potentially existed outside of the singularity?” But if we want to remain “scientifically” accurate then God to would have to have been a part of the singularity and began existence at the time of the Bang. In this case we then have to invoke the doctrine of annihilation (if something has a beginning then it must also have an end). It would stand to reason that if we are unable to accept an infinite past, then an infinite future is likewise impossible. And according to “traditional Christianity” we are nothing more than creations, of a supreme being, who have a beginning, and as backed by science, have and end. But science says that we are evolutionary organisms who are genetic mutations of lesser species who evolved through random acts and consequences. In any case, why would God be so concerned with mankind if we are nothing more than a creature who was one day brought to life and will one day return to the elements from which we are made? Why would a Christ be so necessary if there is an end to time as is necessary if there is a beginning?
You might rightfully say that God’s ways are not our ways, to which I would agree with you. So why then is man so insistent that God bend to our ability to rationalize and understand? Why, through man’s interpretation of what he sees, must God be limited in what he can and cannot do? Why is one group right in there defining limitations, but another group wrong in there boundless definition? It would seem that “traditionally” God is only God to the extent that man can comprehend. This is the same reason that in the readings of the New Testament that the Jew rejected Jesus as the promised Messiah. How could a man of flesh and bone be the chosen Messiah when God “himself” would come to earth to save and redeem “his” people (remember that in Jewish belief and traditional Christianity, God has no physical form and man has used familiar words to describe the incomprehensible). This view is shared by the “modern day Christian” that no one in the flesh can claim to be equal to God, as Jesus did. There can only be one God so Jesus’ intercessory prayer is blasphemous in nature claiming that he and the Father are one, which would make him a God equal to God the Father. And Jesus was either certified schizophrenic, or when he prayed he was talking to another being.
If anyone would truly like to understand what a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believes, I would invite you to talk to one. Just as one should do about any religion or group. If I ask a Catholic what this “Christian” gentleman believes, I am sure that I would get a truthful, unbiased dissertation on his core tenets.
All good believers in Jesus Christ could take a lesson from Benjamin Franklin and live by the saying, “I will speak ill of no man and speak all the good I know of everybody.”
All anyone needs to know is on that day just be honest even if it's "I hated you and still do" that will get you further then anything else other than forgiving others. But one doesn't go without the other. It's amazing really.
To say the True God made us also suggest he makes mistakes, we should evaluate things more before we say them. Jesus proved by his existence his father don't make mistakes. "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free"